I recently had an exchange with opposition commenter Torres on CaracasChronicles blog about his ideas for economic policy in Venezuela. And, as expected, Torres demonstrated the sheer ignorance and lack of serious proposals so common among the Venezuelan opposition.
His proposal basically goes like this: hand out all the oil money (about half of the Venezuelan budget) in equal amounts, to the Venezuelan population; an idea that has been proposed by the Venezuelan opposition parties before.
So, let's say Venezuela produces 2.5 million barrels of oil a day, and the price is $70/barrel, then that would mean that each Venezuelan would receive a cash payment of about $6/day every day, in exchange for nothing. Cash would simply be pumped into the hands of the general population without them doing anything in return. (Giving people an incentive to do nothing. Look out development here we come!)
Amazingly, some opposition bloggers think that this proposal would magically solve many problems in Venezuelan society. They think it would somehow eliminate corruption since the money would go directly to the people, yet they forget that government officials and other intermediaries would still be handling the distribution of funds. (Afterall, the money will not just fall from the sky!!!) And Torres even claims it would eliminate poverty overnight! (Somebody call the United Nations, Torres has found the solution for poverty!)
What they don't understand is just how bad this proposal really is, and what the real consequences of a policy like this would be. I explained all of this in detail it in a debate I recently had with Torres here and here.
In a nutshell, the results would be high inflation which would quickly neutralize the increased income of the masses. (So much for eliminating poverty!) But not only that, Torres' plan would mean that instead of using state revenue to invest in economic development, the state would be giving all this money away to consumers to spend!
In other words, the state would have drastically less money to invest in industry, infrastructure, healthcare, education, credits and subsidies to producers, agricultural reform, and all the other things that are necessary for development. So, the plan would not only condemn Venezuela to perpetual underdevelopment due to a lack of investment, but it would also condemn Venezuela to being an import-based economy, since there would be virtually no way to increase domestic production without the necessary investments!
Now, I've heard some pretty stupid economic proposals before, but this one definitely takes the cake as the dumbest policy proposal I have ever heard. That's because these guys have never taken the time to learn the complexities of development theory. They've never studied the economic theories of mercantilism or dependency theory. They don't know about world-systems theory, or neocolonialism, or the development of underdevelopment. They have virtually no knowledge of development economics, nor do they understand the extreme challenges to be confronted during the process of development. They can't tell you the shortcomings of development strategies like export-led development, or import substitution, let alone offer any ideas for how to confront these shortcomings.
No, they've got their own solution to the complex problems of poverty and underdevelopment that have troubled development economists for centuries: hand out free cash to everyone!
Sound stupid? That's because it is.
.
40 comments:
Perhaps you would make it easier for those who did not follow your exchange with Torres by linking or copying the paragraphs where he comes up with this idea (the thread is composed of 120 comments). I oppose the Venezuelan government, not because its leftist or socialist but because despite those ideological leanings they have not made any sustainable progress in addressing the poverty/healthcare/education/security problems that the Venezuelan population is faced with day after day. That lack of sustainable progress coupled with the fact that they have overseen the spending of Venezuela's largest oil prices bonanza to date and the governments unprecedented control over the Country's institutions in my opinion borders on the criminally negligent (after more than ten years they really can't make the "they don't let us govern" argument anymore). Regardless of that personal view I think that if Torres made a handout argument like the one you claim he did then he truly has no idea of what he is talking about.
I would however like to compare that certainly stupid policy with another equally stupid one that the government has actually put in place:
The Venezuelan Government has dedicated a significant number of its resources to importing Cuban doctors to man the Barrio Adentro missions. Although I agree that the public health problem in Venezuela needs to be addressed urgently I am of the opinion that those resources would be better spent if the plan had an overhauling the education of medical practitioners in Venezuela component. As I said, I agree that the problem needed an urgent response and bringing Cuban doctors was that response (despite the fact that they were not allowed to legally practice in Venezuela and the consequent erosion of the rule of law that the policy inevitably created in the popular psyche), but for that plan to be sustainable it had to be coupled with the capacitation of Venezuelan doctors which would replace the Cuban doctors after a while. This solution would have left Venezuela with a highly skilled workforce that would have been able to attend to the problems of the population.
Ultimately and in both cases (the doctors example and the alleged Torres solution to poverty) we are talking about sustainability. The Government thus far has made it very clear with its actions that it cares little about sustainable development and prefers immediate "warm rags" that come accompanied with cheap popular support.
Please read through these arguments carefully before labeling me as an "oppo". The pejorative term you so like to throw at those who think differently than you is a blanket term and you do yourself a disservice if you do not realize that those who oppose the government do so for a multitude of reasons. Some of them because they want their comfy bloody country back so that they can continue to be the "amos del valle", others have legitimate cause to oppose the government for what has been many years of negligent mismanagement.
I oppose the Venezuelan government, not because its leftist or socialist but because despite those ideological leanings they have not made any sustainable progress in addressing the poverty/healthcare/education/security problems that the Venezuelan population is faced with day after day.
This is false. Statistics show that poverty has been cut in half, and health indicators like infant mortality have improved since Chavez came to power, and this has been confirmed by CEPAL.
http://www.radiomundial.com.ve/yvke/noticia.php?19162=
Regardless of that personal view I think that if Torres made a handout argument like the one you claim he did then he truly has no idea of what he is talking about.
Indeed. That is the exact argument he has made, as you can see in the exchanges and posts I link to.
Although I agree that the public health problem in Venezuela needs to be addressed urgently I am of the opinion that those resources would be better spent if the plan had an overhauling the education of medical practitioners in Venezuela component.
It does have this component, and thousands of Venezuelans have already graduated from the program.
http://venezuelareal.zoomblog.com/archivo/2007/04/10/se-graduan-primeros-mil-24-medicos-gen.html
The pejorative term you so like to throw at those who think differently than you is a blanket term and you do yourself a disservice if you do not realize that those who oppose the government do so for a multitude of reasons.
Oppo is not a pejorative term. It is simply short for "opposition", which means anyone who opposed the Chavez government. When I want to use a pejorative term I say something like oppo-moron, or a variety of other colorful terms.
I do understand that people may oppose this government for a variety of reasons. Some are more legitimate than others. But obviously I believe they are wrong because I support the Chavez government.
Have you heard of this concept called 'Taxes'??
Have you heard of this concept called 'Taxes'??
Yep. I already refuted that one in my debate with Torres.
It is true that you could theoretically get some of this money back through taxes, but by very definition only a portion of it, since taxes are a small percentage of the total.
In addition, capitalists are notorious for evading taxes a number of ways, as well as pressuring government to lower their tax burden, and financing political movements that will cut their taxes.
So the end result would be a much reduced amount of money to be used for development, and a tax system that would be subject to the pressures of the economically powerful.
Sound like a good idea?
um, yeah!. your objecting to a totally different situation. we're talking about the gov giving 6$ a day per person so they would all be taxed equally on that particular income so tax evasion doesn't enter into it.
Forgive me for insisting on this point. I perhaps shouldn't since you all but declared that since you favor the government you think anyone who opposes it is wrong (though you are very welcome to clarify your position on this matter if I misunderstood you) but here it goes:
You mention statistics about cutting poverty in half and the reduction of the child mortality rate and forget that my point was about sustainability. Even though I personally consider that the statistics mentioned are debatable I think that the article to which you linked regarding the educational component of the Barrio Adentro program is very telling. The government's answer to the lack of physicians to man Barrio Adentro posts is to create a three year post graduate degree? didn't we have a similar program before? (the answer is yes, we did, we even have a specialization on tropical diseases for people who envision themselves practicing in remote areas of the country). The problem lies with undergraduate medical education, the fact that formerly excellent public medical schools such as the Razetti school in UCV and the Vargas University med school (which yield the overwhelming majority of doctors in Venezuela and have done so for several decades) are not getting any significant funding so that we secure an excellent base of doctors that can then go on to become specialists (be it on Integral General Medicine or something else which we will also need). What we end up is with decaying institutions and hospitals in order to favor new structures thus excluding the inherent experience and researchers that for years have worked in those institutions. This policy of simply creating a higher medical education institution is not sustainable because you can foresee how in a future with no doctors or ill prepared doctors (following the decaying of already existent institutions) the existence of a higher number of spots on a specialization is irrelevant. This is what I am referring to when I talk about warm rags: half hearted policies that do not address the source of the problem but yield some results in the short run accompanied by cheap political points.
Ultimately I don't care, and neither should you, wether poverty is cut in half or if health indicators improve if those improvements are not strong enough to stand on their own when the current government is out of office. This is sustainability.
I have not seen any significant investment in higher education or any significant overhauling of the already existent public schools system. I have seen the creation of missions whose unproven sustainable success should make anyone chavista or not suspicious, I have also seen the creation of a few post-graduate degrees such as the one you seem to think is going to solve the healthcare problem. In other words nothing significant, nothing sustainable and all of this during a period of unprecedented economic bonanza.
We as Venezuelans, chavistas or not, should demand more of our elected officials. And we should make sure that the answers they provide are sustainable even though sustainable policies are the ones that usually only yield popular support in the long run.
I do have to confess that the fact that people on this comment board are defending the 6$ day handout proposal is quite worrisome (and leads me to believe that the commenter in Caracas Chronicle to whom you dedicate this post actually came up with such a solution). They should go back to basics and re-learn the ages old adage about showing people how to fish and not just give them a bucket of fish...
I as an opposer of the government would have nothing to do with such a stupid policy. Lets talk sustainability, lets talk effective use of resources, lets move forward and leave petty partisanship aside is what I say...
your objecting to a totally different situation. we're talking about the gov giving 6$ a day per person so they would all be taxed equally on that particular income so tax evasion doesn't enter into it.
You didn't address the first point, which is that through taxes you would only get back a small portion of the money that you handed out.
As for tax evasion, I imagine the taxes would be charged when certain transactions are made, or else it would be a general income tax. Either way, capitalists will avoid paying. If you only plan on taxing the citizens, but not businesses, then you have just devised the most unprogressive tax system in the world.
"which is that through taxes you would only get back a small portion of the money that you handed out"
so what? it is either the people's money or the government's money. do you thing that today most of the 6$ is going towards social investment? furthermore, you didn't explain in your post how "handing it out" makes vzla more of an import economy than it is today
"If you only plan on taxing the citizens, but not businesses, then you have just devised the most unprogressive tax system in the world."
i repeat. we are talking specifically about the tax on the 6$ per day per person. not the whole tax system. effectively we are talking about "handing out" .for example, 4$ to each citizen and keeping $2 for social investment.
so what? it is either the people's money or the government's money. do you thing that today most of the 6$ is going towards social investment?
Social investment? I think a good portion is going towards investments in infrastructure, roads, bridges, hospitals, schools, etc.
Maybe not as much as should be, but it definitely wouldn't be going towards these things if you just handed it out to people.
furthermore, you didn't explain in your post how "handing it out" makes vzla more of an import economy than it is today
I explained this in the debate with Torres. Since you are just handing the money to consumers, instead of making the necessary investments to increase production, the increased demand would have to be met with imports.
Today the government is investing in different sectors to increase production. Food production, for example, has increased significantly, because the government invests in agrarian reform, necessary irrigation and transport infrastructure, credits to farmers, etc. etc.
Very little of this would be going on if you were just handing the money out to consumers. Food production would be stagnant, and thus Venezuela would be forced to import all its food.
effectively we are talking about "handing out" .for example, 4$ to each citizen and keeping $2 for social investment.
Again, bad idea. And I already explained why in the debate with Torres.
First, because underdeveloped countries like Venezuela already have a shortage of funds to invest in development. They need all the funds they can get. Your plan gives them 1/3 of what they would have normally. So you are significantly harming their prospects for development.
Secondly, because if you don't invest in increasing domestic supply, but simply pump the money into the hands of the consumers, inflation would be a major problem, eroding any income gains of the poor.
"Very little of this would be going on if you were just handing the money out to consumers. Food production would be stagnant, and thus Venezuela would be forced to import all its food."
ok, here's your homework in case you don't actually live in vzla: find out what percentage of food is imported now compared to pre-chavez
ok, here's your homework in case you don't actually live in vzla: find out what percentage of food is imported now compared to pre-chavez
Thanks for making this argument, because you are proving me right.
Yes, food imports have gone way up under Chavez. Why? Because that's what happens when you reduce poverty and increase demand in a matter of a few years. Consumption goes way up, but supply can't be increased fast enough to meet it, so you end up importing food until supply can catch up. (food production has increased significantly under Chavez, but still not enough to meet demand.)
But since your plan would give most of the oil money away to consumers, that means demand would go WAY up, but you wouldn't have as much money to invest in increasing supply. So production would stagnate, while demand skyrockets. Sound like a good plan?
"food production has increased significantly under Chavez"
got it, you don't live in venezuela, thanks!
got it, you don't live in venezuela, thanks!
I actually do live in Venezuela, but that's of no consequence.
Living somewhere doesn't make you an expert on local food production.
But you can take a look at the statistics if you want, even the statistics that are accepted by opposition sources like Fedeagro.org .
"even the statistics that are accepted by opposition sources like Fedeagro.org"
what does that mean? fedeagro displays the numbers they get from the govt and then publicly declare that they aren't accurate
what does that mean? fedeagro displays the numbers they get from the govt and then publicly declare that they aren't accurate
Please direct me to where they have publicly said they aren't accurate. I'm not aware of that.
But regardless of what Fedeagro says, if you don't think they are accurate, please state why, and give some solid evidence that would indicate they aren't accurate. Otherwise you are just trying to discount them for your own personal reasons.
"After more than ten years they really can't make the "they don't let us govern" argument anymore"
Really? Are you sure? What about the 2002 coup and the four month oil strike that followed? I don't mean to sound like a broken record here but Venezuela lost more than 11 billion US$ in oil revenues because of that strike. And guess who came up with that brilliant idea? That's right, the oppo douchebags. I don't mean you, I mean the people in leadership positions who actually decide the oppo's course of action. (Globovision-AD-Copei-PJ conglomerate)
I was born and raised in Venezuela and I can tell you no democratic government in my country has ever had to deal with the bullshit tactics the opposition has pulled during the Chavez government. The 11+ billion dollars of lost revenue belonged to all of us as Venezuelans not just the Chavez government and that, my friend, is no small matter.
-Los
Good work shutting clearly dishonest scumbag like Kepler down at Oil Wars. Your use of terms like "retarded" might be immature or whatever, but who cares when the clowns at OW or Caracas Chronicles have no legitimate responses to your rebuttals. But these are the same people turning a blind eye to what is happening in Honduras, go figure.
Keep up the good work.
"Really? Are you sure? What about the 2002 coup and the four month oil strike that followed? I don't mean to sound like a broken record here but Venezuela lost more than 11 billion US$ in oil revenues because of that strike."
That is a nice way to cherry-pick one sentence you didn't like and try to make it sound like you have a point and I don't. Read the whole comment and reply to it. Otherwise spare us all of your selective rambling. By the way, Chavez then went ahead and fired everyone in PDVSA who had any idea of how to run the place and replaced them with people who favored the government so how much of those 10 billion are the oppositions fault and how much of it is the governments fault? you simply lack clean hands to make the point you are trying to make and in any event its getting old mate, its 2009 now and the price of oil skyrocketed after the events you are referring to. We could argue over this a million years but the fact is the government has shut down the opposition and pretty much had a free reign over the country since then (if you prefer to disagree that they had any political power before even though they certainly had enough political power to remake the constitution). By the way, we can agree that the Venezuelan opposition are a bunch of criminally negligent people (and like you I am refering to the assholes who try to make decisions in the name of those who oppose the government).
So what are your points on the rest of the comment? if any. And be advised I am looking for dialogue and fully prepared to concede any errors in my opinions so please avoid the cheap shots like the one you took earlier.
Quico for sure. That thing about Iran is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read on the internet. It's pure recycled 25-year-old imperial ideology that even neo-conservative hardliners probably don't even believe. But Quico has spent so much time culturally locating himself as a Westerner that the fucker doesn't have three synapses left to communicate to one another that they're causing his fingers to type total inanity. The shit about the Cold War? The Mullahs? Israel? Japan? Iranian deterrence? What the fuck is he talking about?
Seriously, there's some fascinating scholarly or anthropological work to be done on Latin American oligarchical ideology, because they're not even cynics. I think they actually believe all of it.
jewbonics,
what a great idea (there's some fascinating scholarly or anthropological work to be done on Latin American oligarchical ideology).
the deep racial?/cultural? lie of superiority makes it impossible for the oligarchs to think deeply (same for jews supporting israel and for racists in usa). if they do, they hit the lie. therefore all arguments must remain within the range of platitudes, maxims, catch phases and ideas that have already been accepted.
how deep is the resistance to the lie? these fools would cheer as venezuela becomes iraq. how insane is that?
Yayo,
I admit that my comment went off on a tangent from the main topic but I am not cherry-picking anything. With that statement, you were clearly trying to say that the Chavez government has had it easy for the past 10 years when it clearly has not. What amazes me sometimes is that you people criticize Chavez for not doing in 10 years what you couldn't do in 40.
"By the way, Chavez then went ahead and fired everyone in PDVSA who had any idea of how to run the place and replaced them with people who favored the government so how much of those 10 billion are the oppositions fault and how much of it is the governments fault?"
That’s an interesting angle; so now the oil strike was Chavez’s fault? Those people got fired because they tried to bring PDVSA to a halt to force Chavez out of office, plain and simple. If there is such a thing as economic terrorism, I think those actions could be labeled as such. PDVSA is the lifeblood of the Venezuelan economy; if the oil industry goes down, the whole of Venezuela goes down with it. How can you oppos not see that?
“You simply lack clean hands to make the point you are trying to make”
Wtf? Seriously? Clean hands? Don’t you think you are being a little dramatic with your choice of words? I thought you were all about looking for dialogue and stuff.
“So what are your points on the rest of the comment? if any.
I actually agree with the rest of your post, Barrio Adentro was the beginning. However, more needs to be done so as to progressively replace the Cuban doctors with Venezuelan ones so that the program eventually becomes sustainable. I don’t think anyone would argue with you on that one. However, I think the difference here is that you tend to see the glass half-empty and I tend to see it half-full. Barrio Adentro is not perfect but it is definitely a start and a damn good one I might add. I honestly believe Venezuela would have never gotten a program like Barrio Adentro if it wasn’t for Chavez. Maybe the cuarta had tons of comprehensive plans to fix healthcare in Venezuela but, let’s face it, they never got to implement them which explains Barrio Adentro’s existence.
So the point you are trying to make is that the Chavez Government is doing some good things but not enough of them / not fast enough, etc, do I understand you correctly?
Ok, so as a member of the opposition, what options do you think your camp has to offer as an alternative to these populist programs poor people in Venezuela seem so fond of? I heard about mi Negra back in 2006 and I have seen a couple of douchey-looking buses roaming around Caracas with the “Un Sueño Para Venezuela” caricatures printed all over them. Other than that, I am basically in the dark as to what it is you guys have to offer. So, would you care to enlighten us on that subject? Seriously, though, I have no idea what you guys are about.
-Los
los,
as has been pointed out before, if the oppo's revealed their plan, then the 15% of chavistas who might vote oppo would recoil in horror. currently the only true opposition to chavez is on the left. on the right is neo liberal colonialism.
While down in Venezuela I had some upper-middle-class/upper-class friends, and they were fascinating; Venezuelan opposition has really fascinated me since. Their thinking is pure ideology.
But Quico has spent so much time culturally locating himself as a Westerner that the fucker doesn't have three synapses left to communicate to one another that they're causing his fingers to type total inanity.
Indeed. It is utterly baffling that anyone would believe half the shit that guy spouts. But it is because weak-minded people believe what they WANT to believe, whatever feels good to believe. They don't have the courage to consider the possibility that things aren't like they'd like to believe.
lie of superiority makes it impossible for the oligarchs to think deeply (same for jews supporting israel and for racists in usa). if they do, they hit the lie. therefore all arguments must remain within the range of platitudes, maxims, catch phases and ideas that have already been accepted.
This is very true. It is interesting to see that I'm not the only one who has put a lot of thought into how these guys can possibly think the way they do.
Deep thinking means accepting the possibility that everything you've been fed is wrong.
Other than that, I am basically in the dark as to what it is you guys have to offer. So, would you care to enlighten us on that subject? Seriously, though, I have no idea what you guys are about.
I've been asking oppos this question for years. I can't ever get a real answer. I even ask them to explain to me their position with respect to the major issues such as free trade, privatizations, foreign investment, OPEC quotas, development strategy, etc. etc. And, amazingly, they can't even tell me where they stand on these major issues!!!
The only real response I've ever gotten was regarding development strategy, and as you all saw it was an unbelievably stupid proposal.
currently the only true opposition to chavez is on the left. on the right is neo liberal colonialism.
Exactly right.
While down in Venezuela I had some upper-middle-class/upper-class friends, and they were fascinating; Venezuelan opposition has really fascinated me since.
Dude, you sound exactly like me. I have had the exact same experience. I have never ceased to be fascinated with these oppos ever since I witnessed their ability to deny the facts even as they are staring them in the face. (2002 coup was my first taste of this).
It is really incredible how anyone can be so utterly dishonest with themselves and believe what they want to believe despite all the evidence to the contrary.
On the other hand, many of them are simply brainwashed, and don't know any better. You subject anyone to the kind of 24-hour psychological warfare coming out of places like Globovision and there is no way they can think normally afterwards. I've seen it at a very personal level with Venezuelan friends and family.
In my own experiences, most of the middle/upper class oppos I have encountered are either brainwashed or just plain ignorant. However, I have also spoken with some oppos who:
- Describe themselves as non-chavistas yet they support some of the programs (mainly Barrio Adentro and Misión Robinson) that the Chavez government is implementing.
- Do not like Chavez but do not like what the oppo leadership does either.
Also, I have noticed that when you engage these people, you can actually have a decent, fact-based, conversation with them. However, when they finally admit to the fact that Chavez might be doing some things right, they are unable to do so publicly (I am going to call this the "Cartman tries to apologize to Wendy" effect, hehehe). So I am starting to believe that there are a lot of people in the opposition who basically like Chavez but cannot admit to it in public for fear of being ostracized by their middle and upper class peers. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
Let me give you an example of this. Nightlife for the middle/upper class in Caracas is, most likely, going to be focused in the wealthier areas (east side) of the city. So, nightclubs, restaurants, malls, movie theaters (the newer and trendier ones, at least) are going to be located in areas such as Altamira, Los Palos Grandes, Las Mercedes and La Castellana. These sections of the city are usually populated by middle/upper class caraqueños who are most likely in favor of the opposition or, at least, not pro-Chavez. So as a Chavez supporter, you know that when you go out to these places, it is best to avoid talking about politics, let alone say something even remotely positive about Chavez loud enough for the tables around you to hear. I have seen people get booed out of restaurants in these areas simply because they decided to come in after a march and they happened to be wearing a red shirt. Personally, I have had incidents happen to me where people gave me dirty looks because they overheard a conversation I was having with my family and figured out I was a chavista. It used to bother me before but now I usually don’t pay much attention to it unless they get annoying enough. That has only happened once before and in that particular case, I politely told the guy to go fuck himself loud enough for the manager to come and that was the end of it; pa’ que sea serio.
So if we look at this from the oppo’s middle/upper class perspective, even conceding to one thing that could potentially present Chavez on a positive light could cost them their membership to their social network. Also, being labeled a chavista could expose their families/children to the public scorn that might come with being openly pro-Chavez while living in an oppo neighborhood.
Good discussion guys, I think we are getting somewhere here.
-Los
"If the oppo's revealed their plan, then the 15% of chavistas who might vote oppo would recoil in horror"
You are right, Hammer. I think most people in Venezuela had a taste of their "plan" during the 48 hours following the coup.
-Los
Yes. To an extent like liberal Zionists, if we can continue that parallel--the Jewish community is their tribe, their social life, in a very real sense, their community, their embodied values, etc. Which is why it's so hard to self-extricate from the Zionist framework, although anyone even minimally thoughtful or humane can do so especially when they're not being directly challenged.
Then erase Zionist and write "opposition," and it's the same thing. One thing I could connect to people in the opposition publicly about was that Chavez was funny, likeable, etc., and even then, those willing to publicly concede that would look around the room and be like, well, it IS true. The presence of a hard-left gringo in the room doubtless complicated both the ideological and the social dynamic, in ways that are hard to say.
I have in mind this research-project, a dual sociology-anthropology of the Venezuelan opposition, but I'll probably stick to speculating about the lunatics over here on the blog's comment section.
I have in mind this research-project, a dual sociology-anthropology of the Venezuelan opposition, but I'll probably stick to speculating about the lunatics over here on the blog's comment section.
I'm also very interested in this, but would like to study this class in other Latin American countries too. I'm guessing they are more or less identical in their world view, and their position in the economy, no matter which country you choose.
I am not so sure--I had upper-class and upper-middle class friends in both Ecuador and Brazil--the extent of ideological fanaticism in Venezuela goes further, in my admittedly anecdotal experience. I think it's a more ideologically polarized society, in it's way--perhaps because at least on a symbolic level, someone is actually fighting back in the class war. Predictably, that would make one hate one's opponent all the more.
Brazil is a little different: both because intelligent upper-class Brazilians see plainly that Lula isn't even rhetorically their enemy, and because there's a large-enough upper-middle class to accommodate a significant leftist intelligentsia and the accompanying social and ideological milieu.
In Ecuador--the country I lived in the longest--the upper-middle class and upper-class seemed more open-minded than in Venezuela too. But this was before Correa was able to start implementing his policies.
Zeitlin and Ratcliff have a good study on the Chilean upper-class for example that's worth a read, although it's sociology, not anthropology--interesting, but lacking the texture that'd make it fascinating.
Zeitlin and Ratcliff have a good study on the Chilean upper-class for example that's worth a read
Sounds familiar. I think I might have read it once.
I do think the Venezuelan upper classes happen to be worse than even their other Latin American counterparts, but I can't say if this is merely a response to Chavez or if it was like this before Hugo - I don't think the Venezuelan elite isolating themselves from the rest of their country is anything new, even by Latin American standards inequality in Venezuela has struck me as very polarizing due to the oil economy. Most of my experience is with Argentines and Brazilians who seem a bit better than their Venezuelan counterparts; the Argentine upper class especially is a more diverse politically. I think a lot of this has to do with the Southern cone elites having more European connections while their Venezuelan counterparts have made Miami their primary shopping destination for decades now. Mexico's elite also has a lot of political diversity, though Mexico is a unique case due to the curse of sharing a border with the US.
This would definitely be a fascinating study, for my undergraduate degree I was an anthropology and international development double major with a focus on Latin America and always thought more studies should be done on the upper and "middle" classes of the region, their seems to be a common identity crisis among them that reveals itself in interesting ways.
Hey clueless asshole, when are you going to post something worth the trouble, and please do not come back with that horseshit about April coup or whatever.
Charly
Hey clueless asshole, have you thought of something yet? The more you wait the more you have a chance of your blog dying on you.
Charly
Charly - go and fuck yourself.
Hey John,
Next one seems hard coming. No more juice in that canary brain?
Charly
Now, now Charly, there's no need for childish insults. We all know that you are really frustrated that you can't refute anything I've said here. But that doesn't mean you have to resort to such immaturity.
Oh, BTW Charly, if you are going to sign your name to each comment, why bother posting as Anonymous? I kinda wonder who really has the "canary brain" after all?
Post a Comment